Guerra Preventiva ou Puro Acto de Agressão?

Recentemente veio a público que o Estado Israelita pondera fazer uma Guerra Preventiva contra o Irão segundo eles este país tem vindo a acumular de forma perigosa um arsenal nuclear que põe em causa a segurança da nação Israelita.

Lembrando que as últimas Guerras Preventivas dos E.U.A contra o Afeganistão e Iraque demonstraram-se fundamentadas por mentiras, resultando em milhares de perdas de vidas humanas, na destruição das infra-estruturas existentes, crimes de guerra sem punição e na pilhagem dos recursos naturais destes dois países, pergunto-me se realmente haverá um perigo vindo do Irão ou se os israelitas mais radicais estão a pressionar os moderados para uma guerra aberta para espoliar outro país dos seus recursos naturais.

Esta expressão “Guerra Preventiva” em si faz-me muito mal à cabeça, porque para mim guerra é guerra e tentar embelezar com o termo preventiva como se isso legitima-se o acto de agressão, é intelectualmente desonesto.

O que é que os amigos foristas pensam sobre esta matéria?

:sick:

Metem-me nojo >:D

Quem pode, pode… quem não pode, arreia.

Não só concordo que seja intelectualmente desonesto como à falta de um termo melhor, bullying bélico.

Se as chefias israelitas entenderem que devem avançar com a destruição preventiva das instalações nucleares iranianas, não dão cavaco a mais ninguém e nem os protestos dos US, muito menos da Europa\Russia, farão diferença

Desculpem-me mas **** com poder nuclear faz-me confusão, alias não deveria existir paises com armamento nuclear.

[mod]Um bocado mais de respeito, se fazes favor.[/mod]

****? Só se a conversa já tiver chegado ao Paquistão ou da India

Editado pela Moderação.

E se fossem os bascos a terem armas nucleares para rebentar Madrid já te parecia melhor?

Para tua informação e suponho, desassossego, já há muitos com armas nucleares, nomeadamente a Índia e o Paquistão. E não sei se consideras os Israelitas ou não , isso é lá contigo.

Acho que daqui a uns tempos te vais envergonhar do teu racismo.

[hr]

Quanto a pergunta que dá inicio ao tópico, sem duvida nenhuma que é um Puro Acto de Agressão.

Quero apenas relembrar o que Sarkozy e Obama disseram acerca do Bibi Netanyahu, Primeiro Ministro do estado terrorista de Israel.

(Reuters) - French President Nicolas Sarkozy branded Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu "a liar" in a private conversation with U.S. President Barack Obama that was accidentally broadcast to journalists during last week's G20 summit in Cannes.

“I cannot bear Netanyahu, he’s a liar,” Sarkozy told Obama, unaware that the microphones in their meeting room had been switched on, enabling reporters in a separate location to listen in to a simultaneous translation.

“You’re fed up with him, but I have to deal with him even more often than you,” Obama replied, according to the French interpreter.

The technical gaffe is likely to cause great embarrassment to all three

Nao é que seja novidade para ninguém que perceba minimamente de política, pois todos sabemos que os primeiros ministros israelitas conseguem mentir ainda mais que um líder do PSD/CDS ou PS, mas mesmo assim é digno de noticia, visto que se desconhecia qual a verdadeira opinião dos outros lideres mundiais acerca de Bibi Netanyahu.

Na verdade o homem é um mentiroso, aliás, até mesmo quando assina o nome está a mentir, porque o verdadeiro nome de família dele nem é Netanyahu mas sim Mileikowsky, um verdadeiro e decente nome polaco que não deveria trazer vergonha a ninguém, caso o detentor do mesmo não andasse a inventar uma genealogia da tanga para usar como desculpa quando invadem os países dos outros.

Caso os mais dedicados fãs de Israel queiram conferir, podem confirmar aqui, na pagina da wikipedia dedicada ao papá do Bibi.

Edição de citação pela moderação.

Se uns têm direito a armamento nuclear, todos devem ter esse direito, caso disponham de meios para tal. Ou há por aí um medidor de moral e de ética universal que mostre que determinado país merece mais que outro? Para mim ninguém deveria ter, mas caso existam países que tenham, acho muito bem que o Irão e outros mais optem pelo mesmo. Caso contrário, aceitam uma posição de subjugação e de “povo inferior”.

Que é o que os políticos portugueses já fizeram à muito tempo, mas querem fazer de conta que não. Para eles Portugal é uma quinta onde o único rendimento e futuro para a classe dominante é lamber as botas aos americanos e europeus enquanto oprime e explora o cidadão comum, cada vez mais fustigado.

Quanto a Israel, e a tal “guerra preventiva”, estão a ser iguais a Hitler e a outros ditadores que tais, que no caso do ditador nazi fazia guerras porque sim, porque davam jeito e eram preventivas, e a Alemanha precisava de espaço vital para assegurar o futuro. Mas foi assim, a abrir frentes de batalha por todo o lado, de norte a sul, de este a oeste, que “a Alemanha perdeu a guerra”, o espaço vital e a guerra preventiva pouco preveniu, muito menos a invasão e destruição do país e das cidades alemãs. O curioso é que para os israelitas, ele era um genocida, um assassino, um psicopata insano e demente, o seu maior némesis. Eles podem imitá-lo à vontade, no pior dos seus exemplos, que são os bons da fita, o povo escolhido, os detentores da verdade, os guardiões da moral, os bons da fita. Coerências…

P.S: Devo dizer que sou contra a proliferação de armas, sejam elas quais forem, incluindo as nucleares (e principalmente estas e outras do género ou mais perigosas pelos efeitos devastadores que têm). E guerras, passamos bem sem elas.

Acho piada chamar-se o “estado terrorista de Israel” quando os maiores actos terroristas conhecidos são dos muçulmanos e perpetrados contra o estado de Israel.

Aliás, deve ser porreiro viver no meio de pessoal que quer à força toda erradicar-nos do mapa.

Era bestial se a Espanha quisesse exterminar-nos e começasse a construir um arsenal nuclear. Claro que o portuga ia sentar-se de braços cruzados à espera de ser exterminado, ou se calhar ia fazer uma guerra preventiva para impedir que a Espanha tivesse armamento nuclear. Mas claro, os mauzões dos israelitas são uns fdp que não sabem viver em paz, que quando saem de casa e apanham o autocarro arriscam-se a ficar espalhados por meia Jerusalém. Isso é que é vida! Nada como sair de casa todos os dias e não saber se se vai chegar com todas as pernas e todos os braços a casa.

“If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence!
If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel!”

April 7, 2011 – An anti-tank missile fired from Gaza at a clearly-marked yellow Israeli school bus driving near the Sha’ar Hanegev Regional Council wounded an Israeli teenager and the bus driver. The boy, 16-year-old Daniel Viflic, later died from his wounds in the hospital.

August 28, 2011 – Eight people were wounded when a Palestinian man from Nablus attacked a Tel Aviv nightclub. The terrorist hijacked a taxi in Jaffa and rammed into an Israel Border Police checkpoint that had been set up to protect the event of over 2,000 people. He then jumped out of the taxi, shouted “Allahu Akhbar” and began stabbing bystanders and police.

August 18, 2011 – A series of attacks targeted civilians and soldiers in southern Israel, killing eight people and wounding at least 31. Terrorists from Gaza infiltrated Israel via the border with Egypt, fired on a civilian buses and vehicles, detonated explosives when soldiers arrived on the scene of the attack, and then launched mortar shells at soldiers along the Israeli-Egyptian border.

April 7, 2011 – An anti-tank missile fired from Gaza at a clearly-marked yellow Israeli school bus driving near the Sha’ar Hanegev Regional Council wounded two people.

March 11, 2011 – Five Israelis, all members of the same family, were stabbed to death in their beds by two men, both believed to be Palestinian. The victims included father and mother Ehud and Ruth Fogel, and three of their six children, Yoav, 11, Elad, 4, and three-month-old Hadas. The brutal murders, which occurred in Itamar, drew international condemnation from governments, the United Nations and the Middle East Quartet of nations.

September 1, 2010: Two Israelis were wounded, one seriously, when Hamas terrorists ambushed their car as as the couple was driving near Kochav Hashachar.

August 31, 2010: Four Israelis, including a pregnant woman, were murdered when terrorists ambushed their car as they were driving near Kiryat Arba in the West Bank. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack, which coincided with the restarting of Israeli-Palestinian peace talks in Washington, D.C.

July 22, 2008: Sixteen people were wounded when a man drove a bulldozer into a bus and four other vehicles in central Jerusalem. The attack was an attempted copycat of an earlier attack on Jerusalem’s Jaffa Road on July 2, 2008. The terrorist was shot dead by police.

July 2, 2008: An Arab resident of Jerusalem deliberately drove a bulldozer into pedestrians and vehicles in central Jerusalem, overturning and flattening a number of buses and cars. Three people were killed and 66 injured in the attack.

April 9, 2008: Two Israeli civilians were killed and two wounded when Palestinian terrorists attacked an Israeli-controlled border crossing where fuel is piped into Gaza. The attack at the Nahal Oz depot was carried out by members of various terrorist movements, including the Popular Resistance Committees.

March 6, 2008: Eight men, seven of them teenagers, were killed when a Palestinian gunman entered the Merkaz HaRav Yeshiva in Jerusalem and opened fire. The terrorist also wounded nine in the attack before he was killed at the scene.

February 4, 2008: A 73-year-old woman was killed and 40 people were wounded when a suicide bomber blew himself up in a shopping center in the southern city of Dimona. A second bomber was shot by a police officer who noticed him reaching for his explosive belt. Both Hamas’ armed wing, Izaddin Kassam, and Fatah’s armed wing, the Aksa Martyrs Brigades, claimed responsibility for the attack.

January 24, 2008: Two terrorists entered the Mekor Hayim High School Yeshiva in Kfar Etzion, south of Jerusalem, and stabbed two students. The terrorists were killed by two of the counselors in the room. The Izaddin al-Kassam’s Martyrs Brigades, the Hamas military wing, claimed responsibility for the attack.

January 24, 2008: Rami Zoari, 20, from Beersheba, a border police officer, was killed and another female officer was seriously wounded after terrorists approached the entrance to Shuafat refugee camp in northern Jerusalem and opened fire on a group of Israelis. The Battalions of Struggle and Return, a previously anonymous offshoot of Fatah’s Al Aksa Martyrs’ Brigades, claimed responsibility for the attack.

December 28, 2007: Two Israelis were killed by Palestinian terrorists while hiking outside of Hebron. A third hiker managed to escape.

January 29, 2007: Three people were killed in a suicide bombing in a bakery in Eilat, the first suicide bombing in the city. Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

June 25, 2006: Eliahu Asheri, 18, of Itamar, was kidnapped by Palestinian terrorists from the Popular Resistance Committees while hitchhiking from Betar Illit, southwest of Bethlehem, to Neveh Tzuf, where he was studying. His body was found on June 29 in Ramallah. Israeli Authorities believe Asheri was murdered by his captors shortly after his kidnapping.

April 17, 2006: Nine people were killed and at least 40 wounded in a suicide bombing near the old central bus station in Tel Aviv. The blast ripped through Falafel Rosh Ha’ir, the same restaurant that was hit by an attack on January 19. The Islamic Jihad and Fatah’s Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades both claimed responsibility for the attack. The Hamas led PA government defended the suicide bombing, calling it an act of “self-defense.” Hamas official spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri called the attack “a natural result of the continued Israeli crimes against our people”.

March 30, 2006: Four people were killed in a suicide bombing outside Kedumim in the northern West Bank. The Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigades took responsibility for the attack.

January 19, 2006: At least 30 people were injured in a suicide bombing near the old central bus station in southern Tel Aviv. Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

December 29, 2005: Three people were killed - two Palestinian civilians and an Israeli soldier - in a suicide bombing at a checkpoint near Tulkarm. The suicide bomber was apparently planning to target one of the many children’s events taking place in Tel Aviv for the Hanukkah holiday, but was stopped at the checkpoint. Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

December 5, 2005: Five people were killed and more than 50 others injured in a suicide bombing at the entrance of a shopping mall in Netanya. Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

October 26, 2005: Six people were killed and 55 wounded in a suicide bombing in an outdoor market in the town of Hadera. Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

October 16, 2005: Palestinian gunmen killed three Israelis and wounded as least 5 others in two separate drive-by shootings in the West Bank. The Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for both attacks.

August 28, 2005: A suicide bombing outside the Central Bus Station in Beersheba severly injured two security guards who stopped the bomber from entering the bus station. Islamic Jihad and Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.

August 4, 2005: An AWOL Israeli soldier killed four Israeli Arabs and wounded 12 on a bus in town of Shfaram. The shooter was killed by a mob that boarded the bus after the shooting.

July 23, 2005: Two people were killed and three others wounded in a drive-by shooting near the Kissufim crossing in the Gaza Strip. Islamic Jihad and Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.

July 12, 2005: Five people were killed and 90 wounded in a suicide bombing outside of a shopping mall in Netanya. Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

June 24, 2005: Two teenagers were killed and three others wounded in a drive-by shooting near Hebron. The Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade claimed responsibility for the attack.

February 25, 2005: Five Israelis were killed and 50 other civilians were wounded in a suicide bombing outside a Tel Aviv nightclub. Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

January 13, 2005: Six Israelis were killed and five other civilians were wounded in a double suicide bombing at the Karni crossing between Israel and the Gaza Strip. The two suicide bombers used a very large explosive device to blast through a defensive wall that separates the Israeli and Palestinian sides at the crossing. Following the blast, the bombers crossed into the Israeli side, carrying explosives on their bodies, which they detonated. Hamas and the Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades claimed joint responsiblity for the attack.

January 4, 2005: Two adults were lightly injured when a mortar shell, fired from Gaza Strip, hit a school bus near Nissanit. None of the children were wounded.

December 15, 2004: Five motorists, an officer, three soldiers and a civilian were wounded from gunshots fired by a terrorist at Israeli vehicles on the Kissufim road in the Gaza Strip. Palestinian Islamic Jihad and Fatah claimed joint responsibility for the attack.

November 1, 2004: Three people were killed when a suicide bomber exploded in Tel Aviv’s busy Carmel market. At least 32 were wounded. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine claimed responsibility.

September 22, 2004: Two police were killed and at least sixteen people were injured when a suicide bomber detonated a bag packed with explosives at a crowded bus stop in the French Hill neighborhood of Jerusalem. The Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade, affiliated with Yasir Arafat’s Fatah, claimed responsibility. The slain police had stopped the 18-year old woman, Zainab Abu Salem from the Askar refugee camp near the West Bank city of Nablus, from approaching the bus stop, and she detonated the explosives.

August 31, 2004: Sixteen people, including a 3 year old, were killed and about 100 injured when two buses in Beersheba were attacked within minutes of each other by suicide bombers. Hamas claimed responsibility.

July 11, 2004: One woman was killed and 32 people were injured when a bomb exploded next to a Tel Aviv bus stop. Fatah’s El-Aksa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.

June 28, 2004: A Kassam rocket fired by Hamas terrorists in the Gaza Strip struck near a nursery school in the northern Negev town of Sderot, killing an Israeli man and a 4-year old Israeli child.

May 2, 2004: An Israeli woman, in her eighth month of pregnancy, was shot dead along with her four daughters when two Palestinian terrorists fired on their car at the entrance to the Gaza Strip settlement bloc of Gush Katif. After the car spun off the road after the initial attack, the terrorists approached the vehicle and shot the occupants at close range. Fatah and Islamic Jihad claimed joint responsibility for the attack.

March 14, 2004: Ten people were killed and 16 wounded in a double suicide bombing in the area of the Ashdod Port. Hamas and Fatah claimed responsibility for the attack.

February 22, 2004: A suicide bomber attacked a bus in the center of Jerusalem, killing 8 people and wounding 70. The Palestinian terrorist group Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility.

January 29, 2004: A suicide bomber attacked a bus in Jerusalem’s Rehavia neighborhood, killing 11 people and wounding 50. The Palestinian terrorist group Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility.

January 14, 2004: A female suicide bomber killed four people and wounded 20 at the Erez Crossing in the Gaza Strip. Hamas and the Fatah Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.

January 13, 2004: An Israeli motorist was shot dead and three of his passengers were wounded when their car was fired upon by Palestinian terrorists near Talmon, west of Ramallah. The Fatah Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.

December 25, 2003: A suicide bomber killed four people and wounded more than 20 in an explosion near a bus stop at Geha Junction in Petah Tikvah, a suburb of Tel Aviv. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine claimed responsibility.

October 15, 2003: Three Americans were killed and one wounded at the Beit Hanoun junction in the Gaza Strip when a massive bomb demolished an armor-plated jeep in a convoy carrying U.S. diplomats and CIA personnel. Both the militant Islamic Jihad and Hamas movements denied responsibility for the attack.

October 4, 2003: Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for a suicide bombing at the Maxim restaurant in Haifa killing 20 people and wounding more than 60.

September 26, 2003: Eyal Yeberbaum, 27, and 7-month old infant Shaked Avraham were shot dead by a Palestinian terrorist who knocked on the door of a home in Negohot, south of Hebron, during a celebratory Jewish New Year holiday dinner. Islamic Jihad took responsibility for the attack.

September 9, 2003: Hamas claimed responsibility for two suicide bombings, the first at an entrance to the Tzrifin army base near Rishon Lezion and the second at Café Hillel in the German colony neighborhood of Jerusalem, which killed a total of 15 people and wounded at least 80.

August 19, 2003: Hamas and Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the suicide bombing of a bus in Jerusalem killing at least 18 people and wounding nearly 100.

August 12, 2003: Suicide bombers killed two Israelis and wounded more than a dozen people in two attacks within a half hour of each other, one at a shopping mall in the Tel Aviv suburb of Rosh Ha’ayin and the other at the entrance of the West Bank town of Ariel. The Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade claimed responsibility for the Rosh Ha’ayin bombing and Hamas claimed to have carried out the Ariel attack.

July 7, 2003: Mazal Afari, 65, of Moshav Kfar Yavetz was killed in her home and three of her grandchildren lightly wounded in a suicide bombing. The Jenin-based cell of Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

June 20, 2003: An Israeli motorist was shot dead and three of his passengers were wounded when their car was fired upon by Palestinian terrorists near Ofra, north of Ramallah. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

June 19, 2003: A suicide bombing in a grocery store in Sede Terumot in northeastern Israel, south of Beit Shean, killed the owner of the store. Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

June 17, 2003: A shooting attack near the Kibbutz Eyal junction of the Trans-Israel Highway killed a 7-year-old girl and wounded three members of her family, including her 3-year-old sister. The Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine claimed responsibility.

June 11, 2003: Sixteen people were killed and more than 80 wounded when a suicide bomber blew up a Jerusalem city bus during the afternoon rush hour. The bomber was disguised as an ultra-orthodox Jew. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

May 19, 2003: A suicide bomber attacked the Shaarei Amakim shopping center in Afula, in northern Israel, killing at least four and wounding 15. Islamic Jihad and Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades both claimed responsibility.

May 19, 2003: A Palestinian suicide bomber on a bicycle attacked an Israeli checkpoint on the Gaza Strip, wounding three Israeli soldiers. Hamas claimed responsibility.

May 18, 2003: Seven people were killed and more than 20 wounded when a suicide bomber blew up a Jerusalem city bus at the start of the Israeli work week. The bomber was disguised as an ultra-orthodox Jew. Soon after, a suicide bomber carrying explosives and dressed in the garb of an ultra-orthodox Jew was stopped at a roadblock. The Palestinian detonated his explosives, killing only himself. Hamas claimed responsibility in both attacks.

May 17, 2003: A pregnant Israeli woman and her husband were killed when a suicide bomber detonated himself next to them in a public square in Hebron. Hamas claimed responsibility.

April 30, 2003: Three people were killed and dozens wounded in a suicide bombing at a beachfront pub in Tel Aviv. The Fatah Tanzim and Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack, carried out as a joint operation.

April 24, 2003: One Israeli was killed and 13 were wounded in a suicide bombing outside the train station in Kfar Saba. Groups related to the Fatah Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine claimed responsibility for the attack.

March 30, 2003 - A suicide bombing in the pedestrian mall entrance of a cafe in Netanya wounded more than 40 people. Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack, calling it a “gift to the Iraqi people.”

March 7, 2003 - Two Israelis were killed and five were wounded when armed terrorists infiltrated the community of Kiryat Arba and attacked during Shabbat. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

March 5, 2003: Sixteen people were killed and more than 30 wounded when a terrorist detonated a powerful bomb on a bus en route to Haifa University. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

January 5, 2003: Twenty two people were killed and about 120 wounded in a double suicide bombing near the old Central Bus Station in Tel Aviv. The Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, Islamic Jihad and Hamas all claimed responsibility for the attacks.

January 2, 2003 - The charred body of an Israeli from Menahemiya in the Lower Galilee was found in the northern Jordan Valley in his burned out car. The Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility.

December 27, 2002 : Terrorists broke into a dining hall at a yeshiva in Otneil, south of Hebron, and killed 4 students who were working in the yeshiva kitchen, and injured ten others. Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.

December 20, 2002 – An Israeli rabbi was shot and killed on the Kissufim corridor road in the Gaza Strip while driving with his wife and six children to attend a pre-wedding Sabbath celebration in Afula. Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Parece que só ouve vítimas israelitas, até agora, e criminosos árabes ou islâmicos, neste conflito. Quando as coisas são contadas com tanta parcialidade, é difícil.

A propósito, já vi fotografias variadas do presidente iraniano reunido com Judeus, e Judeus a manifestarem-se contra o radicalismo do Estado de Israel e da sua política sionista, que é, além de racista, xenófoba e discriminatória, isso mesmo - criminosa. Em várias vertentes (religiosa, social, urbanística, legislativa, militar, policial, etc), há a intenção clara de oprimir e limitar uns, enquanto tudo pode ser permitido a outros, sob o argumento: “os bons da fita somos nós, é o bem contra o mal”. Mas não convém falar muito disso, porque dá mais jeito contar a história só dum lado. Uns são os mauzões, e os outros os anjinhos que caíram do céu…

Armas só levam a mais armas, a corrida ao armamento. Não consta que tenham sido os povos históricos do médio oriente os primeiros a armarem-se e munirem-se de ogivas nucleares, ou será que foram e nunca ninguém nos tinha avisado?

A questão é exactamente essa: armas são feitas para destruir, para ferir e para matar, para agredir.

Como se justifica a ocupação de Israel da Palestina, à luz do direito internacional? Gostava sinceramente que alguém mais dentro do assunto e informado me esclarecesse, mas procurando manter alguma isenção e sem tornar esta discussão em ruído e fait divers. A propósito, sabiam que alguns dos países que foram ponderados para a instalação do Estado Judaico foram Portugal e Madagáscar, a ilha no Índico ao lado de África? Pois é. “Anjos”, caídos do céu e cheios de boas intenções. Curiosidades… :hand: :naughty:

Em caso de ataque, o Irão tem toda a razão em ripostar.

E começará a terceira guerra mundial.

[i]HISTORY

The creation of the State of Israel in 1948 was preceded by more than 50 years of efforts to establish a sovereign state as a homeland for Jews. These efforts were initiated by Theodore Herzl, founder of the Zionist movement, and were given added impetus by the Balfour Declaration of 1917, which asserted the British Government’s support for the creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine.[/i]

2. O fundador do Sionismo político no século 19, Theodore Herzl, em seu trabalho "O Estado Judeu" (The Jewish State), tinha originalmente escolhido Madagáscar como uma pátria para os Judeus.

Eis uma citação a qual é muito difícil de encontrar e confirmar na internet, pois há resultados e resultados de pesquisa. Não quero promover páginas de conteúdo discutível ou duvidoso (todas acabam por ser, mas naturalmente há umas mais perigosas do que outras, mais dissimuladas e parciais). O que interessa é iludir as pessoas com a espuma dos dias, as questões mais complexas são ocultadas pois só alguns “iluminados” parecem ter o direito e a capacidade de discutir assuntos sérios com seriedade, informação, objectividade, sabedoria e conhecimento. Gostava de conseguir encontrar uma referência à transformação de Portugal numa possível “Israel” da Europa Ocidental, mas não é nada fácil. Há assuntos incómodos, que fazem corar até o seu mais acérrimo defensor, preferindo votá-los ao esquecimento e ignorância dos povos. Pelo menos consegui demonstrar parte da minha afirmação, que não foi infundada nem a proferi gratuitamente, com a intenção de ludibriar alguém. É que eu costumo ter boa memória, e confio nela o suficiente, sem excesso de confiança.

Não, não sou anti-semita. :hand: :naughty: >:(

Qual é a desculpa?
O Irão assinou uma porrada de tratados de não proliferação nuclear, quem tem armas nucleares é Israel.
No War for Israel in Iran - Keep Americans Safe

Quero lembrar que o que levou ao atenuar de tensões na guerra fria foi o Desanuviamento de 1974…Ou seja a União Soviética e os E.U.A acordaram que a sua corrida ao armamento nuclear chegara a extremos absurdos e que estavam a alimentar a proliferação de Armas de Destruição Massiva, este gesto por mais estranho que pareça acabou por ter partida na União Soviética e permitiu uma redução dos arsenais das duas super-potências da altura.

Em vez de “Guerras Preventivas”, Israel deveria era sim dar passos largos na via diplomática com o Irão, o diálogo deve ser sempre o ponto de partida para a paz, não podemos fazer como a Alemanha Nazi que impôs à Sérvia um dictact impossível de ser respeitado pelo seu governo para ter um pretexto para uma invasão. É incrível como já na altura a nação invasora/opressora procurava sempre uma desculpa para sustentar os seus actos de agressão.

Quero com isto dizer que o atenuar de tensões e arsenal bélico tem sido sempre a receita para a paz.

Olhe-se por Exemplo para o caso Chinês sem terem bases militares por todo mundo (caso E.U.A) conseguem manter respeito mundial. O respeito obtém-se não se impõe, neste momento a grande maioria das populações do mundo vêm os E.U.A como uma potência opressora imperialista e ultra-capitalista em decadência, um “império romano” em queda que tenta impor respeito pela violência e assim só promove o terrorismo.

O que irá assegurar a paz de Israel, o diálogo harmonioso com os estados vizinhos ou tomando a iniciativa e declarando a guerra a todos esses estados como prevenção?

Como dizia o Historiador Félix Cooper (…)Um dos erros contínuos da história mundial são guerras começadas por homens incapazes de dialogar e terminadas sempre pela via do diálogo. Seria interessante que pela primeira vez esta (referindo-se à guerra fria) começa-se e termina-se pelo diálogo em vez de se ansiar pelo sangue e perda de vidas humanas(…)

Cumps

[i]Der Judenstaat (German, "The State of the Jews", also sometimes translated as "The Jewish State") is a book written by Theodor Herzl and published in 1896 in Leipzig and Vienna by M. Breitenstein's Verlags-Buchhandlung. It is subtitled with "Versuch einer modernen Lösung der Judenfrage", "Proposal of a modern solution for the Jewish question", and originally called "Address to the Rothschilds" referring to the Rothschild family banking dynasty.[1] [u]It is considered one of the most important texts of early Zionism. As expressed in this book, [b]Herzl envisioned the founding of a future independent Jewish state during the 20th century[/b]. He argued that the best way to avoid anti-Semitism in Europe was to create this independent Jewish state. Herzl, who had lived as a secular, largely assimilated Jew, was fluent in neither Hebrew nor Yiddish. His lack of contact with Jewish culture and intellectual currents, and his limited contact with Jews less assimilated than he prior to hitting upon the idea of a Jewish return to Zion, [b]led him to imagine that popular Jewish support for a Jewish State elsewhere than in Palestine was conceivable[/b].[/u][needs citation] [u][b]In Der Judenstaat, Herzl noted the possibility of a Jewish state in Argentina[/b][/u]. [u]Herzl popularized the term "Zionism", which was coined by Nathan Birnbaum. [b]The nationalist movement culminated in the birth of the State of Israel in 1948[/b], though Zionism continues to be connected with political support of the State of Israel.[/u]

Main argument

The main argument of the book is as follows. After centuries of various restrictions, hostilities, and occasional pogroms, the Jews of Europe have been reduced to living in Ghettos. The higher class is forced to deal with angry mobs and, so experiences a great deal of discomfort; the lower class lives in despair. Middle-class professionals are distrusted, and the statement “don’t buy from Jews” causes much anxiety among Jewish people. It is reasonable to assume that the Jews will not be left in peace. Neither a change in the feelings of non-Jews nor a movement to merge into the surrounds of Europe offers much hope to the Jewish people. Jews “introduce” anti-Semitism wherever they go:
“The Jewish question persists wherever Jews live in appreciable numbers. Wherever it does not exist, it is brought in together with Jewish immigrants. We are naturally drawn into those places where we are not persecuted, and our appearance there gives rise to persecution. This is the case, and will inevitably be so, everywhere, even in highly civilised countries - see, for instance, France - so long as the Jewish question is not solved on the political level. The unfortunate Jews are now carrying the seeds of anti-Semitism into England; they have already introduced it into America.”[2]
The creation of a Jewish State may be a possible solution to the problem faced by Europe’s Jews.
Herzl opposed the efforts already made by Zionist groups to settle Jews in Ottoman-controlled Palestine, arguing that "important experiments in colonization have been made, though on the mistaken principle of a gradual infiltration of Jews. An infiltration is bound to end badly. It continues till the inevitable moment when the native population feels itself threatened, and forces the government to stop a further influx of Jews. Immigration is consequently futile unless we have the sovereign right to continue such immigration.” (Quoted from The Jewish State, translated by Sylvie d’Avigdor, Nutt, London, 1896, and reprinted by Dover, 1988, p. 95.)
For this reason, Herzl, both in Der Judenstaat, and in his political activity on behalf of Zionism, concentrated his efforts on securing official legal sanction from the Ottoman authorities.[/i]

[i]The title "Der Judenstaat" was probably meant as an ironic play on words, since it literally means "The Jews'-State," a derogatory construction like the "Judenstrasse" (Jews' Street) of the medieval ghetto. [u]In The Jewish State, [b]Herzl[/b] proposed a modern solution to the Jewish question. He believed that attempts at assimilation of Jews into European society were in vain, as the majority in each country decided who was a native and who an alien. The persistence of anti-Semitism determined that the Jew would always be an outsider and only the creation of a Jewish state, a matter of interest to both Jews and non-Jews, would put an end to the Jewish problem.[/u]

The Jewish State proposed that diplomacy would be the primary way of attaining the Jewish State. Herzl called for the organized transfer of Jewish communities to the new state. Of the location of the state, Herzl said, "We shall take what is given us, and what is selected by public opinion[/i]."

Mais alguns elementos, sempre levando em conta que pode haver falhas de conteúdo, erros ou imprecisões. Não deixa de haver alguma ironia nisto tudo, se bem que tem de ser enquadrado no espírito da época, com a sua conjuntura e circunstâncias específicas. Dá que pensar nas confusões que se fazem e nas mistificações que se criam de certos assuntos, porque na verdade eles são mais complexos e intricados do que aparentam, mas existem e não são fábulas ou contos.

Mas o ponto em que eu toquei penso que ficou claro. A localização do Estado Judaico proposto por Herlz, com todas as suas especificidades, idiossincrasias e utopias/distopias culturais, quer do autor, quer da proposta, quer da substância e da relação com a realidade de então, não era um pressuposto, e sim (supostamente nas ideias do autor, não se pode saber o que já então era a real politik e a diferença para aquilo que se afirmava e se escrevia publicamente) algo a definir, através do debate e da opinião pública. E como em tudo o que mexe com altos interesses e esferas de decisão, da sua manipulação ou não, da combinação, imposição e aproveitamento de interesses que viriam a ter como “ombro amigo” (aliados) as principais potências de então (europeias e não só), e os seus objectivos imperialistas e coloniais. Os tais que tantas dores de cabeça parece que andam a dar a Sarkozy e a Obama, talvez. :inde:

Portanto, se dermos o benefício da dúvida e confiarmos na pureza das intenções que Herlz afirma ter e apregoa, ou seja, na sua sinceridade, fica provado que pelo menos hipoteticamente havia a hipótese do Estado Judaico não se localizar no actual território e sim noutro, possivelmente, e como deu para induzir, num qualquer continente, fosse a ilha de Madagáscar ao largo de África, fosse a Argentina, na América do Sul, ou quem sabe, um qualquer rectângulo à beira-mar plantado, numa qualquer península, espécie de apêndice continental, geograficamente localizado na orla de um oceano que une vários continentes. É apenas uma hipótese, entre outras. :think: :inde:

O mais engraçado é que essa proposta de Herlz tem poucas correspondências com o Estado Judaico real, com origem em 1948. Não só existe segregação, xenofobia, imposição não-democrática, militarização, apropriação e ocupação agressiva, ausência de noção de integração cultural e do tal socialismo defendido sem castas nem cidadãos de 1.ª, 2.ª e 3.ª, e o estado ser profundamente religioso e não laico, como se propunha, a ironia das ironias é que foi implantado na mítica Terra Prometida, e com a apropriação das cidades mais religiosas para o Judaísmo, o seu território bíblico e sagrado, e não noutro qualquer canto do mundo. Coincidência? Dá que pensar, tudo isto. Lá isso dá. Mas sem anjinhos nem demónios “fabricados”, porque muitos e variados interesses se moveram por trás. Às vezes aquilo que é pode não ser o que parece, por mais absurdo que possa parecer.

Ponto prévio: tenho nada contra os judeus, ou outro povo qualquer, e não suporto xenofobia/racismo. Dito isto, o que Israel faz aos palestinianos é nojento e uma vergonha!

mas contra o Irão a brincadeira é capaz de lhes sair cara…

Eu sei que é offtopic, mas dá-me cá umas comichões ver esta cegueira em relação à China…
O que raio é a China se não uma potência (economicamente) opressora (ultra-)imperialista e ultra-capitalista?

Quem é que abriu os mercados à livre concorrência mundial a pensar que tinha na China milhões de clientes para viver às suas custas? Quem é que deslocalizou todas as suas empresas para se aproveitar da mão-de-obra escrava?

Foi o mundo ocidental a pensar em grandes ganhos e lucros, esqueceram foi que a China copiou tudo e vendeu a menos de metade do preço!

Economicamente é uma potencia opressora sim aliás têm comprado os recursos naturais do mundo a par e passo, principalmente petróleo, carvão e ouro.

bImperialista? [/b] ^-^ Não necessitam enquanto os E.U.A usam a força eles usam a economia! Assim que a América se auto-destruir ai sim terão quiçá ambições Imperialistas!

Ultra-Capitalista isto não é nada de novo.

Para mim a questão é esta quem “libertou” os mercados de mão beijada à China e ao mesmo tempo aumentava os défices com crédito fácil para comprar a produção barata deste país não terá cometido suicídio económico?

Agora on-topic

[youtube=650,535]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8yAn7vnLG0[/youtube]

Para mim podem-se matar todos uns aos outros. Já não há pachorra para fundamentalistas islâmicos e sionistas!!
Desculpem o desabafo mas é o que sinto. Malditas religiões, em nome delas se matam milhões de pessoas inocentes, se bem calha, muitas delas nem querem saber da merda das religiões!!!

Essa padralhada toda, imãs, rabinos e a puta que os pariu a todos que se matem todos, que assim vão logo ter com o deus deles!